Practical Empowerment: Eugen Ilie on Building Trust and Empowered Teams

Practical Empowerment: Eugen Ilie on Building Trust and Empowered Teams

By Preslie Hirsch |
Feb, 04 2020

Eugen: I think you know, once you once you say that you've learned enough or your you know it all, you have a big problem. You know, things were gonna really hit your heart on. You need to watch out for that. You know, it's just really be very humble about you know who your r and that the world evolves constantly, and they're like a lot of smart people out there that you need to learn from

Preslie: Hi there. And welcome back to practical empowerment. Inspiring conversations with Valley leaders brought to you by after five dot io I'm your host, Presley Hirsch on today's show I sat down with you Eugen Ilie. He's not only a new father and a longtime expert in the digital marketing space, but he also serves as the head of growth at Copper, the C. R M platform. After immigrating to America, he dove headfirst into the online development world by establishing himself at lend up and later at Go Daddy. And he continues to seek ways to improve his leadership abilities, his skill set and team building practices to create a community of people working together to achieve a greater impact this inspiring conversation is packed with value, whether you're a business owner or part of a larger team, and we hope that you enjoy it.

Eugen: Well, it was a really interesting. So back in Romania, I was working on building, you know, I had my own business, but it was basically digital marketing, and it was really at the early days when paid search came about. So a lot of the a lot of the things that we were doing was just, you know, building the websites and, you know, driving traffic through PPC or pay per click. There was really, really early. I graduated from psychology, so I was, like, thinking that I'm going to go on that bath, did some psychotherapy, and it was very refreshing, very different. Yeah, but then, really, you know, like, I was always a little bit of off, like a nerd, or like, a gig unkind off in school and really learned love the technology. So somehow he kind of got me into into the marketing and on That was fascinating. He was just getting the quick results from pate search and traffic. Um, you know what you put out there? You immediately saw a result. It kind of got addictive. But then, you know, kind of stopped expanding on that. And I think the one thing that was really interesting was the affiliate marketing feeling marketing was such a so new at that time. And even now I think they're just depending on the channel that you're like going off there. But feeling marketing was like a big thing back then. Andi, I tried Thio think about new ways to actually expand on that on help affiliates to be more successful. So that's kind of how I got first into the digital marketing. And I love the I love that space.

Preslie: Yeah. What about affiliate marketing Appealed to you? You said he wanted to make those people more successful. Why did that interest you? 

Eugen: It was, um I just identified a lot of inefficiencies in the way that things were running eso you know, it's ah, I think I always loved challenges, and I tried to put myself into a position where I'm challenged around your things and I just identified new ways to actually make that work better for the affiliates and for the merchants. Sure. And that just that network kind of became much more solid when I came to states. And we we build a company here and that was great.

Preslie: Yeah. And what is your position now?

Eugen: I'm the head of growth of copper CRM out of six from San Francisco. It's a small business, uh, CRM for small businesses. It's fully integrated with the sweet with D'Argo. Ah, sweet,

Preslie: Awesome. And how has the online CR M digital marketing space changed over time? Because I feel like as a consumer, you can see that it's grown exponentially. But I know you got involved in the early two thousands. So how is it shifted for us? Somebody that's so deep in it over the last couple decades? 

Eugen: Yeah, I mean, I think that even before when dependent, irrespective of what company I was working and or who I was working with, you know, they've always needed a serum or, you know, and building, you know, the databases and really managing their customers efficiently. And I think that that was you know, it evolved over time, mostly from data that is being collected and how that has been used over time. And right now we just have so much more of it. Yeah, um, you know, a pending a lot of the data from different sources on to know your customers better. I think that just really took the industry to a new level. Um, I would say the other thing that I think it changed a lot is the marketing channels and the technologies that are available before you have to build a lot of things from the ground up or you have to build on the house. Right now, you can leverage so many technologies that are out there and then just makes you much more powerful in terms of delivering the message also, like building a better product for your customer. Now, the challenge to that eyes there. Everybody has access to that softer right, so he becomes much more competitive. So who's going to win in that kind of off the new field? In a sense, I think that the just, uh, is going to be through a lot of experimentation. It's gonna be through, um, running a lot of tests that not necessarily a lot of people know about on how to actually execute, and I think the execution piece is gonna be is becoming a lot more crucial right now or how to tie things together all the AP eyes and really understanding the backbone off how everything works.

Preslie: Sure. And as somebody that enjoyed finding inefficiencies, that probably is a really cool space for you to be. Oh, seems very related in that way through, um and, you know, before we have done, we were talking about earlier the idea that you need Thio build trust in your teams and driver team through things that aren't pressure and fear. And I feel like in a space like running a small business theorem, you know, there is a lot of competitors and there is a lot of competition that market. So what are some ways that you helped drive the people that you work with, the people, that you lied in a way that is healthy and promotes that that growth in competition in a good way? 

Eugen: I think it comes down, you know, and kind of I love the the theme off the podcast here right is about the empowerment. And I think, you know, just empowering people to be themselves, be who they are, is going to really motivate them to really do the best that they can be and become the best that can be driving anybody through fear where, you know, kind of like your little been losing your job or anything like that, you know, kind of like pressure game. It's ah, it's probably short lived. Andi, you can really go on that boat, but I don't think it's going to give you the best outcomes over time. Um and the leadership is, uh I think you know, my brother told me once, you know about, you know, that we are in a position to be to be leaders or, you know, two in opposition in a company. What, you're a director or a VP or where and then you have people that will be reporting to you. Well, you know, sometimes a lot of the people that you you know, they are reporting to you, They you actually need to coach them what you need to be actually a coach to them and actually guide them how they can be become their past Onda. Lot of the time. That doesn't happen in companies. Yeah, so you know, I'm pushing myself to become that and then, you know if there would be one thing that they will remember about me in the future would be that that, you know, I worked with Yoo Jin, and I know what he's done for me or I know that you know, he was not looking for himself, but he was actually looking out for me.

Preslie: And can you expand a little bit on the difference between coaching and leadership, Maybe give like a practical example of what does it look like an action when somebody's being coached versus just being led? 

Eugen: I think it's Ah, I would say that's probably kind of the same thing in terms of like the good leadership, I think I just want to make the distinction between leadership as some people, that there are some people who think in the company as a that you are a leader or your director, and then you basically have objectives that you have goals, you have to go off the dam and then you have to push your company. Your your people that work for you to really execute on that, um coaching and you know, like being you know of a true leadership in a way, is that coaching kind of, uh, norms about who you are and how you actually leading. You know, you need to identify their strengths and weaknesses, but also how what they respond. Bastard. Many times we actually make a lot of wrong assumptions. And we, you know, we probably don't give enough positive reinforcement where we don't acknowledge people that well, yeah, on that can burn people out on then, you know, that's, you know, it's unbelievable. Like in in San Francisco. The turnover is, you know, probably you would have a job within People change jobs within 18 months. So it's very, very competitive because and there are a lot of companies out there. Yeah, but at the same time, I think is also the pressure S o. I think that, you know, you need to really hit that balance, and you need to really find what really motivates them but also to highlight there are opportunities. Give them a path, show them what they can learn, why they're building that with you. Why they should come every day and put all that work which becomes like their second family on the way. Right. Like you're coming over in the office and you spend a lot of time and you're building a company together, they should be empowered to know why they should do that. You know how they can succeed there.

Preslie: Yeah. There were so many good things in there. I like that you spoke Thio. What motivates them? I think that's often overlooked. And as a small business owner myself, that was something that was a little more foreign to me until a mentor of mine mentioned at one point when I was talking about a situation I was having with an employee mentioned this concept of like, Well, what motivates her? And I'm like, I don't know. I've never really thought about that, you know? It's something, you know. I know her anagram, and I know her strength and in order weaknesses. But I never really thought about why she's in the position that she is. So that's that's really interesting. Do you have a favorite tactics? Tests? I mean, what kind of things do you do or give somebody to find out what they respond well to you?

Eugen:  Um, I usually, uh, try Thio. Paint a very, very clear road map ahead of them so if you don't tell them where they should go, it's gonna be really hard to for them to navigate your expectations and what's gonna happen. So, you know, they're kind of like walking in the dark and they don't know where to go. That's probably the worst thing that can happen. Some trying to clarify that. But I think, you know, acknowledging them when they actually doing really well when they are actually taking an initiative, that it's beyond what they've been asked to. Dio. Yeah, um, one thing that I've just thought about, you know, over the last few weeks. Actually, I'm doing some coaching myself. So personal coaching Andi

Preslie: Think you're coaching or being?

Eugen: I'm being so you know Tony Robbins. So I just joined his team. So I got a couple of Robinson. You know, he's just fantastic, right? But it's every week or every 10 days. You know I have a session with them. It's that accountability and, you know, for you to prepare yourself before the meeting. It's almost like what you put into it. What? That's what you get out of it. You know they can be there for you. They can listen to you, but if you don't put really the work into it, you're not going to get the same results. Um, and, you know, I was thinking about, you know, a good way to actually get people more excited on. Really? For them to learn more is to ask them for every week to come up with some new ideas, new, innovative things that you know they could maybe insights or things that they can actually like highlight beating the business. I have, um ah, habit off every week to send a weekly update to the entire team, not even if they would ask me so nobody would have asked me in the beginning, but I basically said every week you're going to receive an update from me about everything that's been done. I would like to have that from everybody, but also with maybe some highlights or things that they've identified not only what they've done, but also new things that they've come up with, kind of forcing them a little bit to be more creative or really digging deeper into certain problems or issues that we would liketo figure out.

Preslie: That's cool. It gives him a very clear outlet to feel heard. Correct. I think that there's probably a lot of employees people that our employees positions feel that their thoughts on the way some things running don't matter exactly. 

Eugen: Yeah, I know. And you know when you know that what you put there every day actually matters, and it actually helps the business move forward. Yeah, there will be even more excited to come the next day, actually, even better. So I'm trying to, you know, make things people the same way.

Preslie: Yeah, well, in thinking about, um, employee morale and kind of the environment that people are working in a conversation that have with Florin in the first episode was all about this idea that the customer is always right. And what does that actually say to your team? Um, And in reading some things about you before we hopped on today I saw that you do believe a lot in being customer set centric and obviously correct me if I'm wrong, but, um, and you know, when the customer wins, the business does better. So can you expand a little bit on? Where's that find balance between still really valuing your team's morale and for lack of better word and also really prioritizing the way the customer feels. 

Eugen: You know, I think the, uh, a lot off. If you would ask a lot of people like me out there about the same topic, everybody would say Customer first. It's kind of cliche, right? Uh, nowadays, I think that what I think you know, you get out of it is not necessarily that they're always right. Sometimes they're wrong, but really to understand, not understand their problems, understand their issues and try to help them out, to become more successful in what they are trying to accomplish. It's not my goal, too. Work with them. So I benefit. My work is them to become better what they dio, and then I'm going to get the value out of it. So I'm not starting off with me thinking about my own Valley or what I'm going to get out of it. I'm thinking about what can I actually do for them? Yeah, what can I add that you know it's going to make them better? Sure. And if we leave by that principle, I think that you'll feel better about yourself, period. I think that you know the more we give not just two companies, but to anybody that we are like surrounding ourselves with. You know that 12 friends, the more we give, the more we're gonna receive back. But you're gonna feel so much better about yourself, and you're gonna be so much motivated to go the next day and do it again.

Preslie: Sure, when it sounds like that's coming from a strong position of empathy, you know, wanting other people to succeed and saying, You know, you might not always be right, But I understand where you're coming from. And I understand your perspective. What kind of experiences have you had, personally or professionally, that have led you to this place of really feeling like, hey with them? The more that I give them more than I'm going to receive?

Eugen: That's Ah, I I love that question. That's a great question. I have had so many clients before that I worked with personally eso. At one point when I went to San Francisco, I went And what full end up, which is Ah, subprime lender. Great time over there and great people there. But, you know, I was leading the A P I on partnerships at some point even before that, the lead pile. You know, I was doing a lot of Theophilus marketing analytics marketing with also partnerships. I've worked with clients that I've helped along the years, um, that even today they call me and they asked me what I think about things. Even now, I'm basically they're just calling me and say if you ever need a job, But if you actually need a project that you need, you need something. Just let me know. I've had a client that the Tony wants and, you know, they build a very good company, um, in which they've sold on. And, you know, he's an investor as well said, if you actually need any funds at one point and you want to build your own company, call me because I want to invest in you. So I'm not saying that, you know, I I don't think I've done anything special about that. But it was that trust that I've built with them and that authenticity that comes along with that and you know that just, you know, returned so much more than I've ever you know, thought you know that that Kim Yoon have given in the past. So it was It was really great. Yeah, you worked well very well for me.

Preslie: That's got to be such a cool feeling to build those relationships and see it pay off. And it's probably really motivating to see it pay off once. And then you continue Thio, build that trust and build those that network, and it continues to pay off. 

Eugen: Yeah, it's You know what you put out there and then how you remember, right? You know, it's, uh, that your career, whether you call it a career or whether you can have this kind of your secondary life, your business life, uh, make the best out of it, you know, just, you know, be authentic, you know, be the best that you can be. And when you don't know, just say that you don't know and learn having that ground growth mindset and working with the others and trying to solve their problems and think it's gonna be critical after critical for everybody.

Preslie: And for those listening that don't know what that is, could you expand a little bit on what a growth mindset is?

Eugen: This is, you know I would say a grown mindset. You know, there are so many situations in my life that I can see myself in that position, and I'm constantly working towards improving on that. You know, it's not something that, you know, I I would say that I own. I don't think I will do I'll ever be that right. But that's again, you know, facing all those challenges as you go through life through life, personal life, for business, on knowing that you don't know a lot, Um, and that you actually need to go to square one and, you know, stopped over one example I've had. And, you know, I think I think I can call it that growth mindset in that regard. Been doing crossfit for a while, you know? I know, uh, Michael Anderson with cross with THX, and he's being a good friend of our off mine and my wife's, um and, uh, he's, you know, like I just realized that I'm kind of plateau ing and, you know, I really can't really become or performance. So I was like, I need to go back and I just need to, like, stop from scratch stuff from zero on, and I asked for help. Um, the respective of how many months or years I've been doing it. It's just not It's not getting me there. I'm healthy. I'm great. But I'm not what I needed to be. So you know, that's one thing. Yeah, social media, or like my wife. She's fantastic. When it comes to, you know, even podcast with doing this. I don't know. I don't think I'm that great, but she's fantastic s Oh, she's a superstar on this. And, you know, she's been teaching me a lot about you know, the, uh, social media are, you know, influence their marketing. And you know how that Avebury actually works out. And you know how deep you can go into the relationship you're building with your audience and your customers. This is so much out there, it's constantly. You have to keep an eye on that for the new thing, and you don't go deep into that area.

Preslie: Sure, and I think I'm hearing you say that you know a growth mindset is largely related to humility and knowing and putting your ego aside and saying there's always room to learn. There's always room to get better. There's nothing you know. No matter how long you been in the game, it's okay to start at square one and be open to something new. Yeah.

Eugen: I mean, I think you know, um, wants you Once you say that you've learned enough or your you know it all you have a big problem. You know, things were gonna really hit your heart on. Do you need to watch out for that? You know, it's just really be very humble about you know who your r and that the world evolves constantly, and they're like a lot of smart people out there that you need to learn from.

Preslie: Absolutely, Absolutely. I'm gonna pivot just a little bit from that because I do want to ask you about this, and I'm gonna read it so that I don't mess up the quote. But I read this in an article that you were interviewed in which I'll link in the show notes so that listeners can read it too, if they would like. And you said the number one thing a brand new company needs to do even before thinking about marketing is to identify their own value proposition from a deep customer centric perspective. Can you expand on why that is?

Eugen: Yeah. Um, you know, a lot times when you build a company, you start with a vision, and then it's very attempting to lose a little bit. That initial vision, when you're actually hitting the road on things get tough. So what? A lot of people make a mistake about these. They start focusing on metric so they start focusing on solving for the monetary side. We're trying to figure out how they can actually turn it profitable before they actually like and identify the pain point off that off their customer and who they are actually solving problems for and if their resolve pain point. So use the research. Customer research is being, um, the kind of the core, um, or has to be at the core of as you're building your company. Um, and I don't think that a lot off companies do that enough. You know, they are rushing through things, they're rushing through things, and then they don't even have the ability or the knowledge to actually set it up properly. Right. So you may understand the value that you're bringing to the table from a customer perspective. But if you don't know you well, actually your audience and who you're going after your cost per acquisition is gonna be. He's going through the roof and you're gonna be listening way more money than you have a thought on. And then you are basically is crumbling and trying to really get back on your track. And there's gonna be harder because you cannot really catch up with yourself. Yeah, so it's almost like taking that step back reanalyze. Who's your audience? Who's your customer? What's their pain point? And why do they need to work with you? What's the value that you actually bringing out there that they cannot get it anywhere else? And if you'll find that and you are laser focused on that, I think you have a better chance to succeed.

Preslie: Absolutely. What are some ways that small businesses can do user research or market research to identify? You know more clearly identify the pain points and who their audiences like, What are some tactical ways that a small business owner could do that,

Eugen: you know, just really run interviews with your customers? I think that that really was very helpful, um, for us in on numerous campaigns or projects products changes that we've made along the years we've actually went over in some companies that I was working for, you know, in different areas of the country, you know? And we were basically interviewing our customers on really understanding How do they feel about the product? You know, before we even go life? Yeah. So I think that that's really important, you know, just having those conversations with our customers. But then you you know, you go in and you launch your campaign and then you try to figure out what's working, what's not working, you know, And I think I'm kind of going back over to the date a little bit, because when you are actually going on launching a campaign out, make sure you have all the tracking and all the data, all the event that I'll be well mapped out. And you are not taking any shortcuts on that because that initial data that you're aggregating, it's gonna be very valuable for you as you are building your next campaign. And if you don't have it, you're kind of guessing. And the more you guess, probably your the rue. Higher the risk. So having your business

Preslie: And when you say well mapped out, Do you mean in having more data points to collect? Is it having a way to review the data? I mean, what does that mean to somebody that doesn't work that way? 

Eugen: Right, you know. So it's, um it's really identified the data points, but also, you know, what do they really mean? And how you actually saving them, how you actually tracking them? So make sure you are actually hiring somebody That's really good that marketing analytics and they know, actually helped her build that out for you. It might seem expensive of the beginning, but it's not really because he's going to save you are a lot of money in the future. Sure, numerous times I've run into these situations where the database waas basically a clever Andi, you wouldn't be able to redeem excess of it. You wouldn't be able to tie things together. So running a campaign on Google would you would not be able to find all the attribution that's needed for you to really understand the metrics. So really going back to the, um, to the basics there on that really set it up correctly.

Preslie: And ah, I can imagine just how detrimental probably isn't the right word, but to take time to interview your customers and try and get this information and do the market research and then not have it to use your words mapped out correctly with where it's no longer very valuable. What a waste of time, Right? 

Eugen: So I would say that yes, I think the worst can happen is that it's actually incorrectly done right by something. You're basically getting the wrong insights, so you may think that you are actually doing something good, but it's actually like hurting your business. Interesting. Um, you know, you we, for example, let's say you're working on your website right then, whether you have a subscription model or you actually want to get revenue out of your customer, you'll try to improve your conversion rates, and you may think that by improving my conversion rates from a landing event right without somebody visited my website to filling all the information out on their will result in more sales. You may actually make those changes and push them out. But you realize that you probably got the wrong audience because over your the changes you've made on your home page attract and converts the wrong people, that one, maybe they will not gonna buy initially or they will buy initially. But then they will turn very fast. So if you're not having those things really tight together, you're gonna realize down the road that you've made really bad choices at the beginning because you're attracted the wrong audience. So you know, it's not always about conversions. It's what type of traffic you are getting through. How is the funnel performing? But also what type of customers you get through a lot at the end of the day and then making sure that all that attribution all the tracking is available all the way through through the customer life cycle. I think that that's the the connection between a ll these events that actually makes your company successful. 

Preslie: Yeah, absolutely. The metrics work and I've even done on a less metric side. I've done research with clients and customers and potential customers just to gain. I thought our insight into the way they phrase things like It's been really helpful for my copy, and I hear a customer explained their pain point in their words. It makes it so much easier to explain it in their words. You know it's gonna resonate with them so much more. That's really cool to bring it back to kind of the mission of this podcast. In terms of empowerment leadership, how does empowerment influence the decisions that you make as a leader or a team member? How does that concept kind of drive? What you d'oh on a day to day basis?

Eugen: Who helping the people you work with but also the, um, not just the people within your company, but all saw the other clients to work with, um, empower them to be authentic and to be who they are, something's or some in some situations that my now work right. So, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that you know, being authentic or, you know, trying to get something out off someone the best that they can be is gonna really keep that I would say employment for them, right? Or you know, that relationship. As a partner in the business, you might not work, but it's better for you to know sooner than later. Sure. Right. So really emphasizing on that thio, um, you know, highlighting, you know that be the best you can be, be yourself and tried to improve yourself as you as we go through these journey together. Right? Um, that's gonna make you better. It's gonna make us better. It's gonna create the trust, knowing that you can fail and you're not gonna be judged. You know, you could you know, I would prefer for you to fail way more. Then I would, you know, like, initially, somebody would expect I want youto fail a lot because that means that you're trying a lot of new deal taking a lot of chances. Well, if you fail to many times and basically, you know, you might not be, you know, But, you know, I might not be the right fit, but you also want to know that. So you really want to be authentic. You really wanna like go with the right foot into the company? No, into your journey. And, you know, I think you're important empowerment. Just knowing that, you know, they come to work and they can be, um, the best that they can be there.

Preslie: Yeah, absolutely. That's a really cool concept to make failure very acceptable. And naturally, I'm picturing like crossfit. And it's, you know, to bring it to, like a more practical sense, right? If your never failing movements, if you're never feeling lifts, if you're great across it all the time, then you're probably not trying new things. And not exactly, You know, you're operating in your comfort zone.

Eugen: Exactly your towing, and then, you know, that's really gonna be really detrimental to your company as well. Because if somebody splattering and then I'm motivated and they're just doing just the bare minimum for them to just not get fired or in, you know, maybe they don't even care about the promotion. But you know what? You know, they were just gonna be, like, basing it out until something else comes along. That's not really the energy you want a building through your team. Sure you want to build a team that, like an athletic team, right? Like that's what I loved the athletes mentality or the athlete mentality. Yeah, you go to win, You go in to win. Um, you're not there not to lose. So that's a good, distinct And, you know, just try to be the your best and know that you can fail, and we're gonna be talking about it, and we're gonna take it up and just make the corrections and the better.

Preslie: Sure. And if someone's listening to this right now and it's like, Yeah, I'm totally on board with that. That's what I want to do. What is something that they could do with their team today? Tomorrow, on a very practical, like first step basis to implement that kind of environment.

Eugen: Open up yourself. Have AA meeting with them than tomorrow morning. Like individually. Yeah, uh, have a very honest conversation about their future. About what they want. Ask them what they like and dislike about you without any like repercussions, right? Like probably they will tell you. Probably there, I'll tell you. But at least you can try. At least you can try to be open. I think it starts with us as leaders Friday. We just need to try to be as open as possible. Um, maybe it's say things that you know about yourself that you know you are not good at and just show them is like, Look, I'm not the best at this, but I'm gonna be I'm gonna try to be the best there for you on this is not about me leading you. We are here to build this together. So don't think about me as a leader or your little your boss. Think about me as your partner in this. Yeah. We're working together on this. This is, you know, Yeah, You're reporting to me and I'm gonna try toe to lead you on. Try to, you know, drive you as best I can, But we're working together, so you feel free to just tell me, You know when you like it and when you dislike it and what I can mean proof and creating that openness, right? With the people that you're working with, he's just going to create a better environment. And people were gonna be more excited. And I think that we're going to come up with great ideas. I've had like people. They would come over to me and they would say, I just I cannot wait for you to get back because I've got this thing going on and I figured out some things, and I will. I'm so excited to share it with you. That excitement. I think that's what you want to hear. That's like the passion that you wanna have in someone you don't have to worry about. Are they working? Are they waste time things like that?

Preslie: Yeah, because it sounds like they're teammate their exact er in there to win with you.

Eugen: Um, the second point on that, I wanna, like, forget about this one. Give them really precise goals. If you don't know what you're heading, you're not gonna be able to get there. So paint them the picture about what's really division and what we try you try to accomplish.

Preslie: Yeah, And do you mean in terms of what's expected of them or like, your job is intended to cause xto happen? Or what do you mean in terms?

Eugen: So, you know, I already familiar with the okay ours which is objective and your results, you know, think about that of the company level, but bring them down over to, like, objective ski results off for your team and kindof pain the picture of where you as a team, like, let's say you're in a marketing team. Or maybe you're in the product team for your end. An engineering team. These are the objectives, and this other kid results is that we were gonna maybe measured against right at the end of the quarter or at the end of the year. Um, show them the path, right? And if something has changed or something changes along the way be very transparent and actually have that meeting and actually discuss it, I would also say when you have those conversations, try not to give them the recipe and tell them this is where you need to be. This is the bath. There is no way for you to adjust that right work with them. So they can be a stakeholder in that journey so they can actually add toe because the more they add to it, the more they were gonna be empowered. They were gonna more their own. It and they were They were gonna work with you to actually make it happen. Absolutely. Don't tell them. Show them.

Preslie: Yeah, partner with them. That's a really neat concept. Because if they have a say in the matter of how they get there and it seems like when I'm hearing you talk about that, if, as a leader, you're really clear on what You're okay, Czar. Okay, ours are. Then you would know what your teams need to be so that it equals that at the end of the day. And I'm sure that team members are much more invested when they know how their role plays a bigger role in the hole in the whole picture. Not absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. This was I really appreciate your time. This is great.

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